40 - Terry Southern Interviews a Faggot Male Nurse

in "The Realist", September 1963

LARRY M., 34 YEARS OLD, WHITE, born in Racine, Wisconsin, has lived in New York for nine years, and is presently employed as a ward attendant in one of the city's largest hospitals. The following is a verbatim transcript of an interview recorded there on March 7, 1963:
Q. Good. Well, let's see. . . now you've been a faggot male nurse for what-nine years, I believe?
A. Well, now, wait a minute! Ha-ha. I mean, look. . . well, I don't know what this magazine is you're from-the Realist, you said. I mean the copy you showed me and so on, but there was nothing about that kind of thing. . . I mean, ha, I'm not going to go along with that kind of thing!
Q. Oh well, listen, I didn't mean to be . . . well what do you say-gay"? "Homosexual"?
A. Well, gay, yes, I mean gay is all right. Homosexual-yes, I'm not ashamed of it if that's what you mean.
Q. All right, now let me . . . well listen, what do you mean, "faggot" is . . . I mean you think "faggot" is what? . . . derisive?
A. Derisive, yes, it is derisive-l think it's derisive. . . I think it's derisive.
Q. Well, I didn't mean it that way-I assure you that. . . I was just trying to use words.. . . you know, words of "high frequency incidence," as they say. I mean, semanticists and so on, that's what they say-that that's the word in currency-"faggot."
A. I know they do, I know they do, and it's probably. . . well, they're probably right, that that is the word they use. But, well, I didn't know, you know, exactly how you-well, you know, ha-ha. . . .
Q. But you really think "faggot" is derisive.
A. Well, I think. . . well, I know, I know for example that it's used that way.
Q. What, derisively?
A. Well, derisively. . . maybe not derisively, but patronizing . . . condescending. . . yes, condescendingly. Well, it's that . . . that kind of tolerance. . . you know? I mean liberals use it-the worse kind of so-called liberal uses it!
Q. Is that true? Well, what about a word like "queer"?
A. "Queer"! Oh well, ha! There you're talking about, I don't know what. . . I mean nobody would use a word like that except some kind of . . . of lizard or something.
Q. Yes, well I wouldn't use a word like that, like "queer" . . . or actually I wouldn't use a word like "fairy" either, or "pansy" . . . they just seem, I don't know, archaic or something. But what about "fruit"? I mean I think Lenny Bruce has made "fruit," you know to use the word "fruit," okay, don't you?
A. "Fruit"? Lenny Bruce used it? Well, Lenny Bruce . . . I mean Lenny Bruce uses these words and. . . well, what, you mean he used it instead of "gay"?
Q. Well, he used it, I don't know, he uses it some way, and. . . well, you know, it seemed to make it all right.
A. Yes, well. . . what, you mean he used it instead of "gay"?
Q. Yes, instead of "gay," instead of "faggot"-he uses "faggot," too, you know.
A. Yes, well some people, I mean some people can do that. . . they can do that and it isn't offensive.
Q. Yes, well that's the point-when I said "faggot" I didn't mean to be offensive.
A. Oh I know that. . . I know that now, that you didn't! But you see. . . well, the thing is you'd be surprised at the kind of people who do.
Q. What, here at the hospital?
A. At the hospital. . . well, everywhere, everywhere. . . yes, here at the hospital, yes, this is a kind of . . . of cross-section I guess you'd say.
Q. Well, listen, let's. . . I mean I'd like to ask you some questions about your work and so on, so why don't -
A. Well go, man, go, ha-ha. .. or baby-I don't know what to say. . . I mean you're not going to use our names or anything. . .
Q. Well, I'm not going to use your name. I mean, you know, isn't that the -
A. Well, that's the thing, yes, I mean I can't do that-you have no idea, I mean this is a very tough state, you can't just talk about these things with. . . with immunity. . . impunity? which is it? You're the writer. Ha-ha. Are you a writer?
Q. Impunity. . . you can't talk about them with impunity.
A. You didn't an-swer!
Q. What, about being a writer?
A. Yes! What do you write?
Q. Yes, well, listen, let me interview you, and then. . . you can interview me. Isn't that good?
A. Oh, ho-ho-ho . . .
Q. No, I mean what I'd like to do, you see, is be able to just put this straight down off the tape, without any editing or anything like that, and, well, if we get, you know, side-tracked. . . well, it's going to be all mixed up. You know what I mean?
A. Chrysler wouldn't like it?
Q. Chrysler?
A. Chrysler? Didn't you say Chrysler? Your boss!
Q. Oh, Krassner . . . yes, Paul Krassner.
A. Krassner! Yes, Paul Krassner-what's he like?
Q. Oh, well, listen, we can't. . . well, I'll tell you one thing about him, Paul Krassner, he's got this thing about format. . . you know? Tight and bright. "Let's keep it tight and bright!" he's always saying. : . and that's why we've got to stick to this one thing-you know, like your story. . . or I'll be in a real jam with Paul. Dig?
A. Do you call him "Pau1"?
Q. Yes.
A. Ha-ha.
Q. What's wrong with that?
A. Noth-ing, noth-ing! Don't be so touchy!
Q. Well. . . let me ask you now what attracted you to this sort of work?
A. People! I love people-I love to be with them, and to help them. That's what hospital-work is-helping people.
Q. What about being a doctor, did that ever -
A. Oh no-no, no, I don't have the patience for that. . . for that sort of training. It's too. . . technical, and too, I don't know, cold-blooded. No, my approach is different. . . it's more intuitive, more instinctive, and more direct, much more direct-you see, I deal directly with my patient, and all the time. . . the doctor sees the patient, maybe five minutes a day-I see. . . well, I don't see, I'm with, that's the difference, I'm with my patient, all the time, as much as he needs me. The doctor has no . . . no relationship with the patients. I have close. . . warm. . . wonderful, wonderful relationships with my patients! They all love me, all of them-not all, no, I won't say that. . . there are some who, well, you know the kind, they don't want help, they don't know what love is-they cmit love, well, you know the kind. . .
Q. You think they don't love you due to gayness?
A. Due to gayness? Ha, ha. Due to my gayness? Yes! No, I say yes and no! They don't like me . . . it's true some of them don't even like me-some of them hate me, and the feeling is mutual . . . well, I won't say that, I pity them-they don't like me because they're afraid-they're afraid of love, and they're afraid of themselves-and this is especially true of the doctors.
Q. The doctors? The doctors don't like you?
A. The doctors, ha, ha . . . well, I don't get along with the doctors too well-our approaches are different, you see. . . I mean, they don't really care about the patient-and they know that I know it! And they're afraid-they know that my power. . . my love, is stronger, and they're afraid. . .
Q. What, for their jobs?
A. Or for their souls! Ha, ha.
Q. Well, surely some of the doctors like you-I can't see how you could stay on unless-
A. Oh some of the doctors, yes! The really, really good. . . well, great ones, do, yes-they appreciate my work and I appreciate theirs. We respect each other. But how many good doctors are there? One in a billion? Not to mention great doctors-which are practically non-existent!
Q. Well. . . I don't understand-do you mean there aren't any really good ones. . . or any that like you?
A. No! I don't mean that, I don't mean that. What I mean. . . Well, take Dr. Schweitzer . . . I've never met Dr. Schweitzer, but I think he must be a great doctor, and I think. . . well, I know, he would understand what I'm doing. And there are others, right here, not great, but good. . . the best. . . and they like me; they respect me.
Q. Well. . . let's see, how about-
A. Listen, don't get the idea that I'm giving a big buildup to the whole. . . well, whole profession, if you like, of hospital attendants-or male nurse, whatever. . . I mean, don't take me as a typical example by any means. I mean some of the others-well I wouldn't want to say.
Q. Why, what are they like?
A. Well, I'll tell you this much, it isn't because they like people they're there!
Q. What is it? Why is it?
A. Well, they're sadists, a lot of them-especially in the mental wards. . . big, insensitive-well, you've got no idea, what goes on in some of those wards-animals, like apes. . . big cruel apes! They just sit around waiting for someone to blow his stack so they can slam him!
Q. Really? Slam him?
A. That's what they call it-"slammin'." Somebody blows his stack and they yell "Slam him, Joe! Slam that nut!" What it really means, what it's supposed to mean is that you put him in the slammer, like, you know, in a padded-cell, and slam the door-but it means the subduing part too.
Q. And how do they do that?
A. How? Are you kidding? Any way they feel like. With their fists, if they can-that's what they really like. . . I mean the tough ones are proud of their reputations for never using the sap-you know, the leather thing. . . the black-jack. Or they may say "Big Joe had to use the sap!" which means that it was a really bad case if Big Joe had to use the sap! But of course a real nut is as strong as about four ordinary people.
Q. Well. . . but they aren't all like that, are they? Is that just the mental ward?
A. The mental ward. No, there's another kind, the exact opposite -not opposite, but completely different-they work in hospitals to be close to morphine, so they can get morphine. They couldn't care less about hitting anybody-they just sort of step aside. . . I guess hoping the guy will fall out the window or something. And when they have to sap him, they just tap him on the back of the head-no expression, nothing. . . they live in a world apart, some of them have terrible, terrible habits-I mean that would cost them two or three hundred dollars a day if they didn't work at the hospital.
Q. And they get morphine-how do they get it?
A. Oh well, they get it! Ha, ha, they have to get it-I mean they would get it if you. . . if you put it in a safe and dropped it to the bottom of the ocean! They're like Houdini when they go after that-nothing could stop them, nothing! I mean they don't even worry about how to get it-all they want is to be in the vicinity of it, because, if they are, they'll get it! And you know therl1s a lot of morphine in a big hospital.
Q. Well, what do you think. . . I mean, are they good at their work?
A. No! They're like zombies-no feeling, none at all . . . they can't help the patient. Why I have some wonderful relationships in the mental wards-but they don't care, about the patient, about anything. . . they don't even speak to anyone. Not to me anyway -none of them will even speak to me.
Q. But they must do their job. . .
A. Of course! They do their job. They make sure of that, that they do their job! Yes, that's true, they do their job and they do it very. . . well, very thoroughly-I mean, you see, they cannot afford to get fired, so . . . so they do their job very. . . very well, in a way. Very careful and serious-but never a smile or a kind word for anyone. Oh no, they're too serious! Ha! Well, I certainly wouldn't have them in my hospital. I can tell you that!
Q. What, you mean. . . well, do you think about that? About hospital administration? '
A. Yes! That's what I'd really like to do-I'd like to organize my own hospital!
Q. What would you. . . would you have. . . an all-gay staff?
A. What? Ha-ha I No-ooo! Don't be silly! What an idea! Ha, ha, ha! An all-gay hospital! Well, who knows. . . maybe it would work out that way. . . who knows? I mean, one thing I do know, I would not, repeat not, use women nurses!
Q. You would not?
A. No! I would not! And I know what you're thinking, but I don't care, it isn't true, I would definitely not use them. .
Q. Yes. . . well, why not?
A. Why not? For the very simple reason that a hospital. . . a hospital should be . . . clean. . . efficient. . . well-run! With an atmosphere of love and. . . human affection, human warmth! And care for the patient! People who care about the patient! And not just constant. . . bitching about having their period! Or not having their period! Qr having their menopause! Or not having their menopause! Or washing their hair! Or not washing their hair! God!
Q. Is that-
A. Do you know. . . let me just say this . . . do you know that nurses. . . women nurses, are one hell of a lot more trouble than the patients are? That's right. They're always sick-always sick! If it isn't their period, it's something else. Something's wrong with their breast! Or their insides-ovaries! womb! uterus! vulva! tubes! And God knows what else! Christ, if I hear another nurse talk about her goddamn tubes. . . !
Q. Well-
A. I know, I know. . . I'm exaggerating. All right, all right, you're right. . . I am. But. . . But! . . . it's only an exaggeration. Do you follow? I mean it is true. . . it's true, but exaggerated. Right? Do you dig? And here's something else, and this is true-most nurses, almost no nurse, in fact, is married. . . they're sexually frustrated, and bitter, baby. . . bitter, bitter, bitter!
Q. Well, can't they make it with the doctors, or the patients? I mean -
A. Yes! Of course! Oh, they do, they do! With the doctors, patients, interns... ward-boys, janitors-anybody! Listen, I could tell you. . . well, that's why you can never find one of them! They're either. . . lying down in the rest-rooms, coddling their period, or they're off somewhere getting laid! In the. . . the broom-closet or someplace! Ha!
Q. Then you don't-
A. Oh listen, I've known some nice nurses, I don't say that. . .there's one here, right here, on this floor-day-nurse . . . a darling, perfectly darling little old lady-she's let's see, how old is [name] now. . . ? She's sixty. . . four. Sixty-four years old! And a marvelous nurse! Really. Marvelous sweet old lady! But, I mean, ha, ha, well, I don't mind telling you it's. . . well, it's a rare thing, a very rare thing!
Q. Yes, well-
A. But listen. . . just a minute-what did you say? Just before? You said why can't they make it with them? The patients and so on-is that what you said?
Q. Well, you said they were frustrated. . .
A. Well, but that's not going to change their. . . well, what kind of hospital is that, for heaven's sake! With the nurses getting laid all over the place! You think they should do that? Ha, ha, you. . . you've got some funny ideas about hospitals!
Q. I didn't say they should do that, I just wondered if they did.
A. And an all-gay hospital! Ha, ha! That's very funny!
Q. Well, you don't think that's. . . what, that isn't even conceivable?
A. Well, you couldn't get an all-gay staff to treat only gay patients, I can tell you that.
Q. But would it be possible to have an all-gay staff? I mean are there gay janitors, for example?
A. Oh, ho-ho! Are there!
Q. Well then, theoretically -
A. Ha, ha! Some of my best friends are gay janitors!
Q. Well, the point -
A. No, no, that was a joke!
Q. Yes, I realize that, I realize that. It's very funny.
A. Ho-ho! You didn't laugh!
Q. Well. . . I did really. I mean I recognize it as a joke. I
acknowledge it as a joke. Ha, ha. How's that?
A. Ha, ha . . . Well, you have some funny ideas about hospitals, that's all I can say.
Q. I don't have any ideas about it-I wanted you to tell me about it. I mean we've. . . you've made certain generalizations, about doctors and so on, so I was asking about that.
A. About an all-gay hospital?
Q. Well, an all-gay staff, yes.
A. Well, it would be a damn good hospital, I can tell you that. Better than any there are now!
Q. Well, what about the . . . wouldn't the gay staff try to . . . try to take advantage of the non-gay patients? While they were asleep, or weakened or something?
A. Ha, ha! Well, I mean if you call love and. . . and-well, what do you mean "take advantage of"?
Q" Well, I don't know. . . it seems like they would.
A. Well, anyway, one thing-you could be sure of getting plenty of attention!
Q. Yes. . ,
A. And I do mean you!
Q. Uh-huh . . .
A. Ha, ha! Now, now, don't take it so person-ally!